This episode is the Current TLP Students: Perspectives from the Classroom panel from the Technology Law and Policy Clinic at 10 event. It was recorded on November 10, 2023
Melodi Dincer (moderator), Technology Law and Policy Clinic
Kiana Boroumand, Technology Law and Policy Clinic
Batya Kemper, Technology Law and Policy Clinic
Talya Nevins, Technology Law and Policy Clinic
Talya Whyte, Technology Law and Policy Clinic
Announcer 0:01
Welcome to engelberg center live a collection of audio from events held by the engelberg center on innovation Law and Policy at NYU Law.
This episode is the current TLP students perspectives from the classroom panel from the technology Law and Policy clinic at 10. event. It was recorded on November 10 2023. Okay,
Melodi Dincer 0:25
thank you all again for being here. Like I said, you may remember me from the one question I asked at the first panel, like I said, then this is such a cool experience just to be in this room with these fascinating, interesting, intelligent, excellent people. And thanks again, to the organizers, and to the staff, and everyone who had a hand in putting this event together. So this is a panel on the perspectives of current NYU Law students, which many of us in this room once were, and several of them took the clinic either last fall or last spring, or both, or some combination thereof. And this is just an opportunity for you to hear from students about their probably much more recent experiences with the clinic than your own. And an opportunity to reflect as we often give our students in the their clinical experience. I think reflection was one of the kind of surprise features of the clinic that I didn't know I would have to do, and do so often. And so much of but it is that kind of reflective practice is strangely something that has helped me a lot as I've carried it through various stages of my early career. So this is an opportunity, like I said, to hear from some of the recent TLP alums on their experiences. I'm going to give a very brief introduction to myself, and then I'm going to ask the panelists to kind of go down the line not starting with Thalia, we're going to start from this end, and then we're going to work our way down. And they're just going to give you a really brief super short introduction of who they are their year in law school, any types of past work experiences that they want to highlight, and then we're gonna get into the discussion. So up top, my name is Melody Dincer. You may know me as mal as well, and I graduated from NYU Law in 2020. I participated in the tech Law Clinic in the fall semester, Enoch was my partner. And that was in 2018. Yes. And then I did the advanced clinic in the following spring of 2019. It was a really transformative experience for me. I also had to come to Jason moment actually, I've had, I think, several at this point. And I It has just been an invaluable experience for me both in law school when I was starting to kind of lose hope a little bit resisting the maybe the funneling effect of law school in a way I came knowing that I did not want to do private practice. I did not want to work in big law. And I wanted to do technology law specifically. So the fact that there was this space for Public Interest technology law, was a great boon for me, and it continues this community. This community specifically continues to help me figure out what what I'm trying to do here. So, really briefly, after graduating, I worked at Epic, the Electronic Privacy Information Center in DC. I focused there on data privacy issues, and I just wrote handfuls of amicus briefs on a wide variety of data privacy issues. I clerked for a little bit. And now I have the great joy of working again with Jason and with the engelberg center, as part of the knowing machines research project. If you haven't heard of us already, Google us go on our website, read some of the fantastic work that we're starting to put out into the world. And I've also had the pleasure of being a supervising attorney back with the clinic and kind of being on the other side of the table. So can we start with you some brief intros?
Kiana Boroumand 4:25
Okay, I have for you and I'm Kiana Boroumand, I am a three out at NYU, I was in the Senate going very well with a mainframe. Before and why you I went to Hopkins where you studied sociology and English and then I went to the University of Bristol in England, where I got a master's in socio legal studies as a Fulbright Scholar. I came to NYU without a technical background at all. I'm really interested in tax law and wanting to explore it and more Trying to figure out what interested me in this new chapter of my life. And Jake said in his opening remarks, you mentioned that what you wanted out of the clinic was a place where students could come and hang out and sit. And that was what I wanted out of the clinic. And I thought, and I'm so excited to talk about it here.
Batya Kemper 5:26
Hi, I thought Yeah, I am a three L and I participated in the clinic. My two Oh, spring.
Melodi Dincer 5:34
Are they not on? Mine is on that's for sure.
Batya Kemper 5:40
Can everyone hear me? Okay? I bought Yeah, I'm a thrill. I participated in the clinic my two L's spring. And before law school, I majored in the history of science and technology and undergrad. And then I worked at the Santa Barbara Santa Barbara public defender, through a fellowship funded by the National Legal Aid and Defenders Association, doing data privacy, and cybersecurity work. And I was also the clinic was a big part of why I came to NYU. Because I knew I was interested in that kind of work.
Talya Nevins 6:24
Everyone, I'm Talia Nevins. I am a three L at NYU. And I did the clinic last fall during my two l fall. And yeah, I also came to NYU with a specific interest in tech law and policy, I came in with a pretty strong interest in kind of data, privacy, government surveillance things. But through the clinic, I've also expanded my interest in tech law to kind of the many other areas of law that are connected to technology and changing because of technology. So in law school, I've gotten to do kind of some of the surveillance work and constitutional law that I came in with an interest in but also some antitrust related tech projects. And I'm learning I learned about IP for the clinic. And so I think that a great thing that I'm excited to talk about in the tech Law and Policy clinic is kind of the interconnected nature of all of these areas of law through when you look at the law through the lens of technology. And that's why it's so exciting to be in this room.
Talya Whyte 7:27
Hi, everyone. I'm Talia Whyte. Happy to be confused with tele 11, who's a wonderful person. I'm a three L and I took the clinic last year, my two year in the fall and the spring, was really excited to get to do it twice. before law school, I studied psychology and neuroscience at the University of Alabama, and also came into law school knowing that I wanted to do tech work and tech policy work not really knowing what that meant. And now that I've dabbled in a bunch of different work, both like through the clinic through the engelberg center, doing some stuff with the knowing machines project also, as a Google legal scholar, and now as an NYU cyber scholar, I'm like a little bit like, Whoa, where do I go from here? But I'm currently interested in First Amendment issues and surveillance issues, especially on social media platforms. And I'm excited to talk about that today. Cool. Well, we're
Melodi Dincer 8:28
gonna delay the substantive panel questions. Just one follow up question further. I want to give you all a better sense of these incredible not only students but human beings. So I'm gonna ask a fun question. And then if you know, and you are comfortable sharing, I'm also going to ask about your post graduation plans since you're all three L's. So first, the fun question. I'm just curious, like, what is your favorite spot? On campus? Off campus? In the city? Maybe beyond the city? Where do you go to recharge for solace for fun for dancing, anything of that nature? And then again, if you feel comfortable and you know, I would love to hear what you're going to do next. On campus, I really don't know what your kids are. Oh, okay.
Kiana Boroumand 9:34
All right. Oh. Okay. On campus, the clinic office, obviously. Off campus where you go to recharge. I am a big fan of hammock grove at Governors Island. I love a good hammock.
Batya Kemper 9:57
My favorite place on campus Is the Kimmel center which law students never go to, even though we're allowed to. And that's got like amazing views of the city. If you go to the top floors off campus, I really love wave hill in the Bronx, which, if you've never been basically feels like the English countryside somehow. It's really beautiful. And then my post grad plans have not been totally established, but potentially Hogan Lovells, it's for my husband.
Talya Nevins 10:31
My favorite place on campus is the ninth floor of Furman where you can get a nice 360 degree view out of all of the windows of the surrounding area. It's also very quiet normally. So it's a nice place to just some people like to study there, I just like to hop up there for look out the window and I want to have a moment of quiet. And off campus, I like to be under a tree in Prospect Park. And after graduation, I'm going to be a legal fellow at the knight First Amendment Institute, which is an institute dealing with questions of free speech in the digital age. And then I will click
Talya Whyte 11:15
on campus, I'm going to second the ninth floor. It's an amazing room. I'm up there all the time. It's a totally a thing. Off campus. I'm going to go outside of New York City. And I grew up some in Appalachia and I love being in the woods in West Virginia. And after graduation, I'll be going to Cooley's New York office as an associate. Nice.
Melodi Dincer 11:40
Okay, so I'm going to I promised Talia one tell you one as well, honestly. They're both excellent. But I'm gonna tell you why. The first question even though I said I wouldn't. But this should be a softball. I just want each of you to briefly describe the clinic work that you've done in as much or as little detail as you'd like.
Talya Whyte 12:04
Sure, I can start. So in the fall semester, the project I worked on with melon, Jason, it was amazing, was evaluating options for potential deepfake legislation. So for that we like really evaluated constitutional challenges and how to insulate the statute from those challenges. And in the spring, I worked on an amicus brief in a case and an anti slap motion, in a case dealing with a facial recognition technology company, ClearView AI. And then I went on to co author and so sorry, co author a piece with J car, and then later went on to present on that piece with the national consortium of data sciences. So I'm really deep into the facial recognition stuff. Both of those projects were amazing. I really enjoyed them.
Talya Nevins 13:00
Last fall, I worked on the amicus brief that Brett briefly mentioned earlier relating to geofence warrants. In the USB Chatri criminal case, that's going to be argued in front of the Fourth Circuit next month. My partner writing the clinic, the amicus brief was Yan'an over there. And my supervisors were Jake and Brett. And, you know, it was a, it was a great project where we, as Brett mentioned, started from kind of this feeling of Eric, and from there work to develop a constitutional argument that in the end, I think, really made sense. And we felt good about it. And we argued that the warrant, this style of warrant is unconstitutional under both the fourth and the First Amendment.
Kiana Boroumand 13:44
So I did copyright counseling. And we unusually I think, for the clinic had a docket of multiple clients that we were working with, which was really interesting and learning the like time management skills involved in that. So we worked with a New York City Museum that was trying to bring their reference library open access. We worked with an author who was publishing a novel that was very meta, and contained a lot of references to other books, advising her on fair use with regards to that. And then we also worked with a professor who was doing a digital archiving project, archiving digital artists spaces.
Talya Nevins 14:32
I worked on an amicus brief supporting a petition for a cert before the court. We were challenging an electronic harassment statute on overbreadth grounds. And and one of the reasons why this statute was so interesting was that it got to the heart of why electronic communications are different and complex and maybe should be analyzed differently under The First Amendment is well, and we, my clinic partner, and I worked with Jake and Brad, and it was a joy from fun to end.
Melodi Dincer 15:11
I love this panel, because each of you have worked on such a breadth of different areas of tech law and policy work. And that's obviously one of the strengths of this clinic, I think is that due to the various people who are involved in running and teaching the clinic, and we kind of switch around, as you see, there's a bit of a dynasty thing happening here, but of a lineage. It's like good fusion of the interests and skills of the supervisors and the people on one end of the clinic, and also the students bring their own personal interests. And it's just a really beautiful thing to see when sometimes students will work on projects that they may not know much about that substantive area beforehand. And then they come away learning so much from their specific project, but also from learning more about whatever their clinic mates are working on. And that's I find that to be a really valuable part of the clinical experience is learning not just what you're doing, but what other people are doing, because it gives you maybe like a broader view of what is possible in this field. So with that said, I want to ask each of you how your personal clinical experience has shaped or informed your understanding of tech law and policy work? And potentially, where do you see certain issues going or things that you're interested in, in this field? And we're gonna start not with Sally? Yeah, we're gonna start with Kiana this time.
Kiana Boroumand 16:40
Okay, big question. Um, I think it was in our reflection paper that we had to write at the end of the semester, too. So in a way, we're very prepared to answer it, I think, something that I took away from tech law. And I think Brett said this in the earlier panel was how important values are and how they are meaningful to crafting an argument that is creative, but also doctrinal, ly grounded and legally compelling. And so much of what my clinic partner and I did when we were brainstorming, our argument for our brief, was figuring out how we felt about electronic communications and how we felt about intent over online media and what it meant to put something out there, but also what it meant to receive it. And having those conversations really about gut reactions and values. I think going into it, I thought didn't really have a place in legal argument. But that coming out of it, I found actually really meaningful as a threshold step in getting to that legal argument.
Speaker 2 17:57
I think working in the clinic gave me a much more expansive view of what tech Law and Policy were prior to my clinic experience, I don't think I would have really thought of copyright as a tech law and policy issue outside of maybe software copyrights. So seeing the intersection of so many different issues was really interesting. I also feel like the greatest benefit I derived from the clinic was working on soft skills that I also had not thought about or valued as much before, but the skills of being able to talk to a client and relate to a client. Who are I think our clients came from all different, like levels of understanding or familiarity with copyright law. And like comfort with copyright law. So working on those skills on the like teamwork and time management, and all of those soft skills that I think are really essential to being an attorney that as a law student, you aren't thinking about for the most part, because you're really focused on like, black letter law and, you know, issue spotting and that kind of thing.
Talya Nevins 19:08
Similar to a bias that at the beginning, I think that the clinic really helped me develop this kind of interdisciplinary and inter doctrinal view of tech law. As I said, at the beginning, I kind of came into law school with a thinking that I was really interested in surveillance and data privacy, and I still am. But after doing the tech Law and Policy clinic and getting to hear about all of the different projects that everyone was working on, it really allowed me to kind of zoom out and see how being in a in a legal environment that focuses on how tech is changing the law, generally with a public interest focus has helped me see the ways that different areas of law are really connected. And to answer the question about how it's impacted my career plans. I'm excited to be going to IT organization that has a tech focus because I do think It allows people to get creative with your arguments if you have people who have come from an interest in tech, but from different doctrinal backgrounds and different with different doctrinal expertise, you end up getting a lot of more creative kind of brainstorming in the room with people who say, Oh, we made a similar argument in this completely unrelated context. And so I think just kind of the interdisciplinary and inter doctrinal nature of being in a space that focuses on you know, tech, which is an issue that basically is relevant to every single area of law.
Talya Whyte 20:33
I agree with what everyone said before me. And just to add something on to what you just said about this, like interdisciplinary nature and working with other people, I think one of the big things I've taken away from the clinic is like how to use build upon work that people are already doing, rather than like starting from scratch, or like adding, you know, duplicate the secondary material that's already been done. So that's one thing I've taken away. And also scoping projects to be like reasonable for the amount of time that you have to complete them, which is a skill that I am always working on. I looked at Jason, because he's always like, I think you should narrow that down. But it's a really important professional skill that like requires constant practice.
Melodi Dincer 21:18
Yeah, kind of jumping off of that. And at this point, it's just chaos, you know, anyone jump in at any time. But I'm wondering like, I've, I have the benefit of having read some of your reflection pieces, but from like a year ago, so I'm curious now as big three L's what are maybe some of the challenges that you faced during your time and in the clinic? Mindful, of course, that clip that your clinical experience, I think a lot of us can relate, it's just one piece of what's going on in your life at that time. Right. as law students, you have a lot of obligations. And I think our our hope, as the people kind of behind the scenes is that the tech Law Clinic does become a space for you that you find kind of common ground, both substantively and in terms of the community. But I'm just curious if you faced any challenges, during your experience, if you feel comfortable sharing them and how you navigated them kind of what you came away. With. That makes sense.
Talya Whyte 22:24
I can go. One challenge that I struggled with a lot. And actually, I think every single person on the clinical panel brought this up. So it's like, clearly a lot of students struggle with this. But communicating like, and setting boundaries, one, professional boundaries, like communicating when you've taken on too much. And yeah, communicating early, I think, which is, and I've talked to you about this a lot. Well, I think like as women in this space, as women of color in this space, there's the added layer of like not wanting to seem like you're not professional or competent. And just like learning how to navigate that in a space with like supportive, supervisors and classmates has been like a really useful thing for me.
Talya Nevins 23:20
On the topic of communication, I think another thing that is unique about the clinical experience in law school is that you have to work as a team law school is so in general, so individual, you're just studying by yourself. And even if you're studying with your friends, you're ultimately taking your test by yourself, you're writing papers by yourself. And so working together with, you know, a partner writing my brief, our brief, as well as with supervisors and developing a strategy and an argument that felt good to everybody involved and felt like we were splitting up the work evenly, but also, you know, not not splitting things up to the extent that we weren't helping each other on each other's arguments. That was a challenge in that it was the first time I'd ever been asked to do that in law school, and frankly, even in college. So your nana and I ended up working together marvelously. But I agree that, that it is a very, you have to be very deliberate as I learned from, you know, many, many pedagogical interventions from the Clinical Directors to communicate upfront early and often about what you expect from one another what your capacity is, and also like, you know, what, what you think could be going better within your team to be able to kind of always be trying to improve and work together better as a team. And yeah, it just seems like a an irony that law school teaches you to think so individually, but then once you're a legal practitioner, you have to constantly be working with others. So I think it's a it's a skill that shouldn't be limited only to the clinical realm but also I'm very grateful to have had it in the clinical realm.
Speaker 2 25:04
Mele actually have chat GPT, right my reflection, so I don't even know. But I think one of the hardest things for Lindsay, who is my partner in the copyright counseling team and I, our posture at the beginning was so cautious. And we were seeing like liability everywhere. And we're like, we've just got to change, all of these things are like, kind of freaking out. And I think law school teaches you to be that way or inculcates that in you with just, you know, with the issue spotting and like reading all of these cases where you're just seeing liability everywhere. And I'm very thankful to Jason who kept pushing back on us and being like, okay, but is it really that big of a risk, like, there has to be some sort of balancing of, you know, maybe there is a small risk here. But if the benefit is really great, you know, we can minimize risk and be smart about it without just like cowering, which was what Lindsay and I sort of started as. So yeah, learning, learning to balance risk in that way was really a challenge.
Kiana Boroumand 26:13
I think the biggest challenge that my partner and I faced this is maybe a little more dry than the answers that have been given. But it was to learn how to kill our darlings, and also to learn which arguments were darlings and which we're not. But we just felt attached to them. And, as I mentioned, we had a lot of ideas going into it. And we had a lot of brainstorming and and then we realized this amicus brief that we were writing was actually going to be quite short for all of the ideas that we wanted to put into it. And over the course of this semester, with the help of Jake and Brett, we learned what arguments were the most compelling. We learned how to escape them cogently and concisely. And we learned that through the process of extensive drafting and cutting down and reviving, and, and that's quite challenging, and I'm really grateful that we had a semesters worth of time to really go through that deliberately.
Melodi Dincer 27:19
Okay, I'm gonna throw out a question. So we had kind of discussed before this panel, because I'm all about transparency. But I'm gonna backtrack and ask you all a question that I, I just, I was inspired about you by what you were just saying. And thank you for doing your own work. Okay. And not feeding it into chat. GBT. But I'm just curious, like, what are some of the things some some of the elements, some of the values, some of the skills that you gained through your experience in the tech Law Clinic? I'm sorry, but I don't remember if any of you have done other clinics. But I think that's also relevant here that you wish could spill out over into kind of the more formal, non clinical aspects of legal education, or just your experience in law school as students.
Speaker 2 28:15
I think that's something we talked a lot about in the tech Law and Policy clinic was client centered lawyering. And because there is not a client and most law school classes, you don't think that way at all. But you get, I think that that way of thinking is really valuable, and really important to being an attorney. And when you're just doing sort of doctrinal classes, and just trying to figure out where the law is, versus where it should be. Or, you know, sort of how you would tailor that to a client's interests. I wish that there was more of that type of thinking and law school.
Talya Whyte 28:57
Yeah, I totally agree. And I think one of the things that I was missing until I got into the clinic, and then having this experience in the clinic made it like more glaringly obvious that it was missing in doctrinal classes, was spending time like thinking about the social impacts of the arguments that you make? And the impacts beyond just like the specific doctrine that you're talking about? I think that pigeon holed kind of thinking is like, not only limiting and like a professional capacity, but it's better for the world to think about how your arguments affect the world at large, not as a secondary thing, but like as the baseline for how you go into making these arguments. And I think that's something the clinic offers that is not often offered in doctrinal classes in the same way.
Melodi Dincer 29:54
That's a really excellent point, I think sometimes from my last student experience a few years ago Have, I struggled a lot with how the social kind of implications of a certain doctrine or line of decisions would come as almost an afterthought in the discussion. So you'll have your lecture, and then you'll be cold called and whatever. And then you'll be giving the facts of the case. And then maybe the professor will get to, at the end, what are some of the implications on XYZ community of this doctrine? And I think kind of clinics, and especially the tech Law Clinic, like we flipped that model on its head a bit. And so thank you for, for playing ball and answering that question off the cuff CUSP like that. I'm gonna ask you another new question. And that's that since we have you here, I'm sure many of us are curious what you think the clinic can do, let's say in the next 10 years, to serve future students like yourselves. Obviously, you've highlighted some of the good things that we're doing. What are some spaces for improvement?
Kiana Boroumand 31:01
You know, it's so hard to answer this question, because Jason has crafted the perfect clinic. And it really is, it really is, but clinic was everything that I wanted it to be. The supervisors were fantastic. And I think going forward in the next 10 years, if the clinic is as good as it was for me, then that, I think, is really what, you know, what students would benefit from. I really enjoyed getting to work on the projects that I worked on, and I appreciated the opportunity to have choice in the beginning. And I really, I have nothing helpful to say I'm very
Talya Nevins 31:53
I'll bite even though I also, like, I agree with everything Kiana said and for me, this clinic was everything I was hoping for. One thing that I think I've been thinking about a lot, as you know, want to be tech lawyer is the extent to which it's important to understand the tech that you're talking about. And so I feel like that was an important part of the project that I worked on during the clinic was that Google had written a really helpful amicus brief in the district court relating to geo fence warrants and explaining how they work and explaining, you know, how they Google Earth goes up, about responding to them. And it was so helpful to us and making our legal arguments to actually have this kind of document that explained how the tech works. And so this isn't a critique as much as it's kind of just an emphasis that I think, as as technology continues to progress at a rapid pace is really important to have, you know, to spend the time actually understanding how the tech works to make sure that the legal arguments have staying power. And I think that we did do that in the tech clinic. But I also think that there's always room for more of that.
Melodi Dincer 33:12
Cool, I'm assuming that it was utter perfection for both of you as well. No comment, no notes.
Speaker 2 33:19
The only thing I would say, and this is not a critique of the clinic. But I you know, maybe this is more a critique of NYU. But I wish there were even more clinical offerings, just because I think it is such an extremely valuable experience. And I think your law school. Education is not complete without it. And I know a lot of people who wanted to do clinics who never got the opportunity, because there just aren't enough spots. So that's my one. I wish there were more spots.
Melodi Dincer 33:46
Yeah, I mean, as someone who wants to go into the space professionally, I agree totally. I can send you my resume later. But I also tell you and mentioned this phrase like wannabe tech lawyer, and I want to pick on you a little bit because I kind of use that phrase a lot as a student and I sometimes still finding find myself thinking that way. And I think, for the tech Law Clinic, like, I won't speak for Jason or Jake or anyone else who's been involved. But for me, the moment that you stepped foot in the clinic, you are a tech lawyer in a lot of regards, because a lot of the skills and the things that you've already mentioned during this panel are things that we as practitioners in this space, we try to cultivate within, like the first few years of our practice, and this is very relevant for me because I'm on like, barely your three of being of being an attorney, but I think that I would, I would hope that each of you feel ownership over your work and that you really did true tech law work at very kind of cutting edge issues. And I I love that students come With such humility in their work, but I also want to take this moment because they're all on stage. And you're all looking up at us to kind of shout out how incredible all of our students are, who take the clinic. And especially like, in in fall of 2022, we just happen to have so many students who want to be in the clinic as, as baccio, Matt just mentioned. And it's so hard to see all of this interest and all of these incredibly competent students who want to kind of in in in this community, and I agree, there should be many more avenues offered by institutions like NYU for students to do this work. But I also just want to validate that you are all tech lawyers like regardless of what you go on to do, you are advocates in this clinic. And that is kind of a big takeaway of your experience here. So in the last few minutes that we have left, because I am going to keep us on schedule, I want to turn the tables on the audience a bit. So in preparing for this panel, I went back into my Gmail, I found my own learning goals from September 2018. And one of the things I had bullet points, of course, but then one of the kind of throwaway conclusionary wishes that I had, was to gain exactly the type of community that's assembled here or partially in this room. And that's kind of strewn about domestically and internationally. All of the people who have touched this tech Law Clinic at this particular law school in some way, and I'm very grateful to be a part of that community, and you're all obviously a part of that community as well. Now, it's kind of like a one to one match, I can just kind of check off that learning goal, now, several years, five years later. So there are many TLP alums in the audience, and incredible attorneys and advocates here, I want to give you all the opportunity to ask how the greater TLP community can essentially help current law students like yourself recent law students, which you will be in a few short months, whether they're pursuing tech law careers directly, or not. What are some questions that you may have, this is just an opportunity for each of you to throw out some things that you want advice on right now, you wish you'd had advice on maybe a few months ago. And I especially giving you this opportunity, because of the people who are here today. And so please don't be shy, whether you're just staying for a few more panels, or you will be at the happy hour. If you have answers for these students find them. They are lovely, they don't bite and just just help them out. Because I think for me, navigating my early career, I relied so heavily on everyone who was an instructor for me, a fellow for me, even a guest speaker during the clinic. And I think that that is for me personally, the biggest skill and take away a cold email a cold phone call to a TLP alum can go a really long way.
Talya Whyte 38:17
I have a question. Something I've noticed in my almost three years in law school, is that there's a obviously a big push to like focus your inquiry on legal questions, which makes sense we are in law school. But moving forward in technology law, which is so like, deeply integrated with societal impacts, social impacts, impacts on people, sociological impact psychological impacts, is there a good way to integrate legal, sociological, psychological work in a way that is useful and helpful? And where like, those kinds of works can enter play on each other rather than being in their separate areas? So that's my question.
Speaker 2 39:12
Say there are a few of us who have been trying to figure out who have big law firms who have been trying to figure out if we should be taking that route or applying to public interest things and figuring out what we're supposed to be doing straight out of law school. So if any of you have strong opinions on that.
Kiana Boroumand 39:32
I guess this is not a law specific question. But I think if people who are looking at their careers at this stage, it'd be helpful to just get advice on how to balance so sense of rigidity and planning and maybe that's imposed on you because of the path you're taking immediately. You know, certainly we're not going to start over jobs and create our own docket, right? With a sense of flexibility also and thinking, okay, maybe this is what I'm doing in this job, or maybe this is what I really want to do in this job and remaining open to opportunities that may arise that we weren't thinking about, but just how to maintain that balance and how to lead our careers, but also allow ourselves to be led by our careers when that would be useful.
Talya Nevins 40:33
I guess, these are all great questions. And I would also like to know the answers. But and in a similar vein, I guess, one thing that we've all been reflecting on that so great about the Czech Law and Policy clinic as a student, but also about events like this is you have these people in the room who are, you know, thinking about things in really different ways, applying them in different ways, you know, all together in one room, willing to talk but I guess, outside of, you know, events centered around tech Law and Policy clinics, how do you go about finding people who can push the way that you're thinking about the law or push the way that you're thinking about tech and creative ways? Like how do you in your daily life, go about, you know, meeting new colleagues and making new connections with people who can help you think yeah, be more creative and more open and more interdisciplinary? In your own work?
Melodi Dincer 41:26
Cool. Thank you all. We have like, some minutes, 234 minutes if the audience has any questions. And if not, I'm going to ask one final question, and then we'll wrap up. Okay, I'll ask my question. So kind of directly related to the questions that you all just ask the audience. I'm wondering, since you're all three else, I'm sure plenty of people have been giving you plenty of advice, what is some of the best advice that you've received recently, and it can be career related advice, it can be maybe even touching on some of the aspects of the questions that you just asked us all.
Kiana Boroumand 42:12
Right, gave a piece of advice to myself, my clinic partner, very early on that I will always remember because it was a very Brett piece of advice to me. But he was talking about how career paths aren't linear, and that you shouldn't count yourself in too much ever, or count yourself out too much ever. Because you have to be open, and you have to believe in yourself and believe in the life that will reveal itself to you. But he was like, you know, guys, should is so random, you cannot plan for anything. And this is maybe not the most reassuring thing to hear as a to L but has become like more and more reassuring as I grow older and wiser. So thank you, Brad for that.
Speaker 2 43:04
Yeah, on a similar note, oh, sorry. I'm just, I think law school tends to like show you very specific, well, trod paths. And it feels frequently that you have to like make a decision too well, that then like locks you into something forever. And the piece of advice I received that I thought was really helpful is that that's just not true. Like there's always time to pivot, you can change your path, you are not locking in forever, what your life is going to be like, that was very comforting.
Talya Whyte 43:43
My piece of advice was from Jake who helped me immensely with creating and practicing my presentation with the national consortium of data sciences. And one big thing that he said to me his like big note was you need to spend like twice as much time talking about the work that you've done. You might have forgotten, other people do not know like, you need to be confident about the capabilities and past work you've done. So that's something that I will definitely take forward into my career.
Talya Nevins 44:22
One, one thing that I have learned through the clinic, and then also been told also, as a skill as a lawyer, is to also be thinking about what you have to say in relation to what other people have to say, and thinking about what you know, specifically, you know, as as a lawyer as an advocate, what your experience and what I should say my what my specific experience and my specific research and interests are adding to the conversation and that's really important to hear, especially like Following on my background context of law school where everyone just is talking to hear themselves talk all the time. I'm just thinking specifically in the context of the clinic, we were writing an amicus brief and we had a conversation about what were the arguments that the actual defense counsel was going to be making? And then what were the arguments that the other MEP we're going to be making? And then what on that backdrop? Could we actually contribute and say that would be different and useful? So that's something that I intend to think about a lot as I decide what kind of legal arguments I want to make.
Melodi Dincer 45:31
Cool. Well, let's put our hands together for our wonderful panelists. Thank you all.
Announcer 45:45
The engelberg center live podcast is a production of the engelberg center on innovation Law and Policy at NYU Law is released under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International license. Our theme music is by Jessica Batke and is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International license